WAMG Interview: Charles Bronson Scholar Paul Talbot – Author of BRONSON’S LOOSE AGAIN!

By Tom Stockman | June 26, 2016

Bronson’s Loose Again!: On the Set with Charles Bronson is author Paul Talbot’s all-new companion volume to his acclaimed Bronson’s Loose!: The Making of the ‘Death Wish’ Films. His new book reveals more information on the Death Wish series and also details the complex histories behind eighteen other Charles Bronson movies. Documented herein are fascinating tales behind some of the finest Bronson films of the mid-1970s (including HARD TIMES  and FROM NOON TILL THREE); his big-budget independent epics LOVE AND BULLETS and CABO BLANCO; his lesser-known, underrated dramas BORDERLINE and ACT OF VENGEANCE; his notorious sleaze/action Cannon Films classics of the 80s (including 10 TO MIDNIGHT, MURPHY’S LAW and KINJITE: FORBIDDEN SUNJECTS); the numerous unmade projects he was attached to; and his TV movies of the 90s (including THE SEA WOLF). Exhaustively researched, the book features over three dozen exclusive, candid interviews including those with directors Frank D. Gilroy and Jerrold Freedman; producers Menahem Golan and Lance Hool; writers David Engelbach, Harold Nebenzal and Andrew J. Fenady; and actors Maggie Blye, Kirk Taylor, Gene Davis, Robert F. Lyons, Kathleen Wilhoite, Angel Tompkins, Catherine Mary Stewart, Robert Joy, and Diane Ladd. Profusely illustrated with rare promotional materials, behind-the-scenes photos, and images from deleted scenes, Bronson’s Loose Again!: On the Set with Charles Bronson is loaded with previously untold insight into one of the most elusive and unique icons in cinema history. Paul Talbot is the author of the books Bronson’s Loose!: The Making of the ‘Death Wish’ Films, Mondo Mandingo: The Falconhurst Books and Films, and The Films of the Dionne Quintuplets as well as numerous articles for magazines such as Video Watchdog, CinemaRetro, Psychotronic, Films of the Golden Age, Shock Cinema, Screem, and Weng’s Chop. He has contributed liner notes, extras, and/or commentary tracks for DVD and Blu-rays including commentaries for three Charles Bronson films: CABO BLANCO (to be released by Kino Lorber September 27th), DEATH WISH 2 (from Shout Factory July 26th) and (MR MAJESTYK (currently available from Signal One as a U.K. Region 2 Disc)  .

Paul Talbot took the time to talk to We Are Movie Geeks‘ Tom Stockman about his books and the career of Charles Bronson

Interview Conducted by Tom Stockman May 19th, 2016

Tom Stockman: What was the first Charles Bronson film you saw and when did you see it?

Paul Talbot : I grew up in the 1970s. My mom was a big Elvis fan and I always watched Elvis movies on TV with her. When we watched KID GALAHAD, it was the first time I saw Bronson. I was really intrigued by his persona. Shortly after that, my dad and I watched my dad’s favorite movie: THE GREAT ESCAPE. How did you become such a Bronson fan?

Bronson and Elvis in KID GALAHAD

TS: I remember the day. It was in the late 60s when THE DIRTY DOZEN first played on network television. It was on a Sunday night. My parents wouldn’t let me stay up and watch the end because it ran late and I remember asking my dad the next morning what happened at the climax. He told me all of the Dirty Dozen had died except that one guy – Bronson! A few months later I saw THE GREAT ESCAPE and thought it was so cool that practically the only guy who got away was that same guy from THE DIRTY DOZEN who lived. I became a big fan right then and he’s been my favorite movie star since. So what is your very favorite Bronson movie?

 PT: I like a lot of them but I have to say that my favorite would be the original DEATH WISH.

TS: I think that’s his best performance. He’s so good in that film.

PT: Yes, it’s one of his best performances, and it’s such a rich, deep movie. It really had a lot to say back in 1974. I think it’s one of the best movies of the 70s, I would put it up there with THE GODFATHER and TAXI DRIVER, and any of those really gritty, realistic movies from the 70s. What is your favorite?

TS: I would say ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST is the best thing he was ever in, but as far as 70s showcase Bronson films go, HARD TIMES would be my favorite.

HARD TIMES

PT: I love both of those movies too. They’re both masterpieces. Bronson is just so extraordinary in HARD TIMES.

TS: Yes, he surrounded by all of these great character actors like James Coburn and Strother Martin, but the audience just stays focused on Bronson. You’ve recorded a commentary for the upcoming uncut Blu-ray of DEATH WISH 2, which I have never seen. I’ve heard that brutal rape scene with the maid goes on and on. 

PT: Yes both rape scenes, the one with the maid and one with Paul Kersey’s (Bronson’s character) daughter, go on for over a minute longer each. Also the death of the daughter has a couple of extra gory shots.

TS: Those scenes are pretty rough even in the R-rated version.

DEATH WISH 2

PT: Oh yeah, they’re just over-the-top.  David Engelbach, who wrote the script for DEATH WISH 2, was so appalled when he saw the rape scenes in the R-rated version he wanted to take his name off of the credits.

TS: What did Bronson think of that?

PT: He was enraged. Robin Sherwood (the actress who played his daughter) told me that when he saw the uncut version he was incredibly angry at director Michael Winner for including that stuff.

TS: Yet he went on to work with Winner for part three.

PT: Yes, part three was kind of the nail in the coffin in terms of the relationship between Bronson and Winner. Bronson vowed never to work with him again.

TS:  I recall seeing an interview on The Today Show in 1985 with Jane Pauley when he was promoting DEATH WISH 3, and he just went off on Michael Winner, calling him “the worst” and saying he couldn’t stand him.  I remember him being really hostile to Jane Pauley during this interview. She also brought up Bernard Goetz, the real-life subway vigilante that was making headlines around that time, and Bronson was really rubbed the wrong way with that line of questioning as well. I think he got tired of people asking him about Goetz. At the end of the interview Jane Pauley looked at the camera said “We’ll air part two of my interview with Charles Bronson tomorrow” I tuned in the next day but they never aired the second half of the interview.

PT: Ha! I would like to have seen that.

DEATH WISH 3

TS: How did you get the idea to write these two books about Charles Bronson?

PT: I’d always been a Bronson fan and one night, long before the days of DVD, I watched the original DEATH WISH again, and thought about what an incredible movie it was and how well it held up.  Soon after that I had a marathon. I went to several stores and rented all five of the DEATH WISH movies and watched them all in one weekend and thought “holy crap, how did we get from DEATH WISH to DEATH WISH 5?!” They’re all so different which is odd because the first three were directed by the same guy.   So I decided I needed to write an article about the first three. I did a lot of research and set up an interview with director Michael Winner. He lives in England so I had to call him at about five in the morning. We had a great talk, talked for about an hour about all three of those films. So I put together this article with this interview in it and I sent it to every single movie magazine out there. Nobody showed any interest in publishing it though. But I knew there was an audience for this kind of information, so I did even more research and wrote about parts four and five and spent years writing my first Bronson book Bronson’s Loose! the Making of the Death Wish Films. I sent that to all the companies that publish books about movies. Nobody was interested, so I did some research on self-publishing. And that’s what I did. The book has established a pretty decent following now and has sold pretty well. I’ve gotten a lot of good response from it. About two years ago, a friend of mine who I met through Facebook contacted me and told me that his cousin had written the screenplay for THE EVIL THAT MEN DO and he put me in touch with him. So I interviewed him, his name is John Crowther and he also worked on the script for LOVE AND BULLETS and was the casting director on 10 TO MIDNIGHT. I sent that interview to a bunch of magazines and nobody was interested so I thought that since there’s so many actors left that were in these Bronson movies, I’d write a sequel to Bronson’s Loose called Bronson’s Loose Again!. So over the course of two years I put that book together. I dealt with a company called Bear Manor Media that specializes in movie books, ones with topics that no one else would publish.  So that’s how Bronson’s Loose Again! came about.

DEATH WISH

TS: Who were some people you wanted to interview that you were unable to track down?

PT: Not being able to interview director Walter Hill about HARD TIMES was a big regret. I was in contact with his publicist but I was never able to set up an interview. But I still think the HARD TIMES chapter is one of the best in the book. Also, there was an actor that I spent a long time tracking down. But he wanted a thousand bucks for an interview and since the book was self-published, I couldn’t afford to pay anybody for an interview. He wouldn’t budge. For a long time, I considered taking out a loan for the grand. I hated to lose that information. I don’t want to say who he was.  There were some people that declined my requests to be interviewed. I’m not exactly sure why, but I think it was because they did not like Bronson and it was a “if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything” situation.

TS: Were there some interviews you conducted but ended up not using?

PT: No. I used material from all of the interviews I did.

TS: Did you ever try contacting Bronson’s 3^rd wife Kim Weeks?

PT: I did, but didn’t get anywhere. I haven’t found any interviews she did about Bronson. She seems to be a private person.  I had an address for her. Andrew Fenaday, who wrote and produced YES VIRGINIA THERE IS A SANTA CLAUS (a TV movie Bronson starred in in 1981) and THE SEA WOLF is still friends with her so I put word through him to her that I would like to talk to her. Also Catherine Mary Stewart, who costarred in THE SEA WOLF is still friends with her. She inherited a lot of money and I’ve never seen her do any interviews, so I guess she’s just not interested.

Bronson with third wife Kim Weeks

TS: She just stays home and counts her money I guess. It seems like perceptions of Bronson’s personality were all over the map in your interviews. Some said he was friendly and approachable on the set and others claim he was just the opposite. How do you account for this division?

PT: It seemed that he was more guarded and angry during his middle years and then he mellowed out in his later years. I think because of his tough early life in the coal mines and in the Army, he had a lifelong distrust of adult male authority figures. He seemed to be very friendly and approachable to women on the sets and younger male actors. I think people’s perceptions of him were often based on whether they happened to catch him on a bad day or not. While conducting the interviews, I did occasionally hear some negative things about Bronson that I did not put in the book. Some of it was information that I did not believe to be true and some of it was distasteful and I didn’t feel the need to print it.

TS: Books are still being written about Bronson. Do you see his cult status ascending among younger film fans now over 12 years after his death (I do). If so, what do you attribute that to?

PT: His cult is definitely ascending. When I published the first book, Bronson’s Loose! the Making of the Death Wish Films, in 2006, I thought the readers would all be in their 40s and older. But many of the readers were between fifteen and thirty. And when the new book came out, many of the readers were, again, in that age group. Many of his movies have been coming out on Blu-ray and it’s mostly the young audiences that are buying them. I see kids all the time with Bronson t-shirts and tattoos. I spoke before a screening of 10 TO MIDNIGHT a few months ago. The theater only sat 100 but it was sold out and the entire audience was under 35. Many of them had never seen a Bronson movie before, but that film brought the house down. I think the Bronson revival is due to the fact that there has never been a screen presence like him. When people see him, they’re captivated and they want to see more of his movies. Also, there are no “personality” action stars making movies today. Meaning that there are no action movies today that can draw an audience just because a certain star is in it.

10 TO MIDNIGHT

TS: Is there a reason you did not cover any pre-DEATH WISH films in Bronson’s Loose Again!?

PT: I decided to only cover the movies for which I could secure at least one primary interview. Unfortunately, most of the cast and crew of the earlier movies have passed away. In fact, five of the people I interviewed for BRONSON’S LOOSE AGAIN! have passed away since the interview. I’m glad that I was able to collect their stories before it was too late. I also didn’t want to cover movies that had already been extensively documented in other books, documentaries, or DVD/Blu-ray supplements.

TS: Several quickie books about Bronson were written in the mid-70s at the height of his popularity. Your newest book fills in the gaps on his later career. Did you keep that in mind when you were writing this?

PT: Absolutely. For example, the 70s paperback Charles Bronson Superstar is a cut-and-paste job and it’s padded with superfluous info. But it’s well put together and loaded with valuable information. I didn’t want to repeat too much of the info that was in those earlier books. I wanted to gather material that hadn’t been covered. In addition to my interviews, I also dug through newspaper microfilm. And I spent a couple days at the New York Public Library for the Performing Arts digging through well over 100 newspaper/magazines clippings from the 1950s until the 90s dealing with Bronson. I also used pressbooks, press kits, and multiple drafts of screenplays.

Several books were written about Bronson at the height of his popularity

TS: According to Bronson’s first wife Harriett, his closest friend and confidante was his brother Dempsey. Do you know much about him?

PT: I do mention Dempsey twice in the book. (He’s in the Index as “Dempsey Buchinsky.”) I briefly discuss that he was Bronson’s favorite brother; that he was Bronson’s personal assistant prior to Kim Weeks; and that Bronson was devastated by the trio of deaths—wife Jill Ireland, stepson Jason McCallum, and Dempsey—that all happened close together. I don’t know much else about Dempsey, but he seems like a great guy that, like Charles, overcame a difficult early life. He certainly turned out much better than the ill-fated brother Roy, who ended up on Skid Row as a chronic alcoholic.

TS: What do you think about DEATH WISH 3’s current status as a cult film?

PT: It certainly doesn’t surprise me. That movie is a laugh-riot that demands multiple viewings. People should be very careful about what they drink or smoke before watching that movie because it can cause permanent brain damage and/or aneurisms. I saw that movie opening night with some fraternity brothers. We thought we were going to see a traditional Bronson action movie. Instead, we got a surrealistic comic strip set in an alternate universe. We didn’t know what hit us. I was, literally, on the floor screaming with laughter. But as much as I love DEATH WISH 3, I have mixed feelings about it. I think it’s the Bronson vehicle in which he comes off the worst. It looks like he wasn’t in on the joke. Plus, he’s unflatteringly photographed and hideously costumed, except for the black leather jacket and jeans he wears in the climax.

TS: Did you see the documentary ELECTRIC BOOGALOO, THE WILD UNTOLD STORY OF CANNON FILMS?

PT: Yes, in fact they contacted me when they were making that. I put them in touch with some people that I had talked to, people like Robin Sherwood from DEATH WISH 2. I’m in the credits of that movie.

TS: That documentary has a brief clip from the set of DEATH WISH 3 that shows Bronson working alongside his stuntman.

PT: Yes, Cannon did a short “Making of DEATH WISH 3” promo film. That’s what that is from. It may be on YouTube.

TS: Why do you think Bronson’s $1.98 project never got off the ground ($1.98 was an autobiographical film about life in the coal mines that Bronson and Jill Ireland tried to produce)? 

PT: He worked on that script from 1974 until the late 80s but never got the script the way he wanted it. It went through many drafts, writers, producers, and production companies. Bronson and Ireland co-wrote the original script and were going to star with Bronson directing. Bronson spent a lot of his own money developing the script. One draft was to feature Paul Williams as a singing preacher who sang with Ireland’s character. He finally gave up on the project when Ireland got sick. The tone of the drafts constantly changed. Some drafts were set in the 1930s, at least one was set in the 70s. I think the main reason that it was never made is that the studios never saw a draft that seemed commercial enough to invest in.

TS: Did you ever see a draft of the script?

PT: I recently read a draft of $1.98 that was written by Rospo Pallenberg (EXORCIST II, EXCALIBUR). This draft is horrendous. It was set in the 70s and reads like an R-rated drive-in movie with lots of sleazy stuff. I got this screenplay from an estate sale of scripts that had been submitted to Paul Kohner, Bronson’s agent. It contained a note stating that Kohner and Bronson hated it. If I had read this script while writing Bronson’s Loose Again!, I would have included a whole chapter on $1.98. I will write an article someday on that aborted dream project.

TS: What do you think of Jill Ireland’s presence in so many Bronson films? She took a lot of heat for her lack of acting skills but someone had to play those roles.

PT: I think she’s an underrated actress. She is excellent in HARD TIMES and FROM NOON TILL THREE. I don’t see how anyone could criticize her performances in those two films. And she is appealing in almost all of the other Bronson movies she appears in. The only one that she is terrible in is LOVE AND BULLETS. But that was also a poorly-written character and she was out of her range. Of course, Bronson always insisted that she be cast.

Bronson and Jill Ireland in FROM NOON TILL THREE

TS: You call her an underrated actress, but I think her more of an underrated presence. It used to bug me that she was always in these Bronson movies and she wasn’t a very good actress. Bronson would sometimes co-star with other actresses such as Jacqueline Bissett or Kim Novak but it seemed Jill was there more often than not. But now I find it sort of comforting watching these old Bronson movies and seeing Jill there. The guy was the highest-paid actor in the world, and then on top of that, the producers were contractually obligated to provide a large role for his wife. I don’t know of any other major star before or since that’s been able to make that kind of demand, and now I think that’s just one of the many things that made Bronson so unique. 

PT: She was an actress before she met him.  At first after they got married, she had small featured roles like RIDER ON THE RAIN and COLD SWEAT. Supposedly she started putting a lot of pressure on him to get her bigger roles in these films, getting closer to being a lead. That really started with SOMEONE BEHIND THE DOOR. After that he insisted to the producers that she play the female lead. I read some producer’s notes where they would show him a script and say what a great part there was for Jill, and then say “look, there’s a great part for you in this film as well”. They enticed him are using that. I think that in some instances, putting her in the movie hurt its quality, and also he turned down some good movies because they wouldn’t cast her in the lead. I know one of the producers, Charles Winkler who went on to do ROCKY, had breakfast with Bronson once and told him that they were going to cast a different actress for a role in THE MECHANIC. Supposedly Bronson said “well, find someone else to play my part too”. Same with BREAKOUT, which was originally supposed to be directed by Michael Ritchie, but he dropped out because Bronson insisted that Jill play the lead in that as well. So he lost some good projects and some good directors because he insisted that she be in so many of his movies.

Bronson and Jill Ireland in SOMEONE BEHIND THE DOOR

TS: That may be, but I have a feeling Bronson never had any regrets about losing those roles.

PT: I agree and at one point there was no shortage of money being offered to him. If he turned down five movies, there was another 10 scripts being offered to him for his asking price.

TS: Do you think Bronson really cared about acting as art?

PT: I think he did. On one hand I think he didn’t want to lose his audience. He knew what his audience wanted and expected from him.  On the other hand, there were some unusual projects that he did, for example FROM NOON TIL THREE, which was a very strange, offbeat movie and a definite artistic choice. HARD TIMES was in some sense an artistic choice as well.  He was hoping he would get an Oscar nomination for that one and there were more traditional action movies that he was offered at that time that he could have done instead.

TS: And he took a supporting role much later in his career in the Sean Penn-directed film INDIAN RUNNER (1991). I’m wondering why more directors didn’t offer him supporting roles in artful films like that.

PT: He did the made-for-HBO movie ACT OF VENGEANCE and in one of the interviews he did promoting that film he said he hoped he would get out of the rut he was in and maybe get some more interesting supporting roles. That was 1986 and I think he knew his days as a big action star were nearing an end and he wanted to do supporting parts. But after MURPHY’S LAW in 1986, Cannon Films offered him an exclusive six picture deal at $1 million per picture which was more than anyone else was offering him, so he figured he’d be a fool to turn that down, so at that point in his career he really didn’t have a chance to do any supporting roles. And when he did offbeat films such as FROM NOON TIL THREE and INDIAN RUNNER, they didn’t do very well.

Bronson in  INDIAN RUNNER (1991)

TS: True, but he did get some acclaim. I recall Siskel and Ebert reviewing INDIAN RUNNER and singling out Bronson’s terrific performance in that, saying they couldn’t imagine anyone else in that role. You mentioned some of the actors that you tracked down and interviewed for Bronson’s Loose Again! have already passed away.

PT: Yes, Maggie Blye from HARD TIMES, Menahem Golan, the famous Cannon producer. Denny Miller who was one of the villains in CABO BLANCO. Also Sylvana Gallardo, the maid in DEATH WISH 2, and Frank Gilroy, the writer and director of FROM NOON TIL THREE. So that’s five people that have died since I’ve interviewed them, but most of these people were in their 70s and 80s when I talk to them so I guess it’s not terribly surprising.

TS: Would you write a third book? What more is there to be said about Bronson’s career?

PT: Well, when I wrote the original Bronson’s Loose!, I had no intention of writing another. But ten years later, I published a sequel that was more than three times the size of the original. I provided the commentary for the MR. MAJESTYK Region B Blu-ray that was recently released by Signal One Entertainment. A few days ago, I recorded a commentary for an upcoming Region A Bronson Blu-ray. And I’ve got another one due in June. (I can’t say the titles until they’re officially announced.) I don’t know if I’ll write another book, but I will continue to research and share info about the life, films, and legend of Charles Bronson.